MRI Suggestive of What?

Hi All. I hate to be the person here who ads to anxiety but hopefully others can relate/have similar outcomes. I've been twitching for about 3 months. No muscle loss but my speech has been a bit slurred and I've been super exhausted. I had an EMG in Jan that came back normal. Since I've had every test my GP can think of with no real results. Yesterday he ordered an MRI and it came back suggestive of ALS. I went to the nuero today for another EMG and it seems to indicate some kind of MND. He didn't diagnose ALS yet but wants to do more testing. He ordered about 10 different blood tests and said it could be a different MND or a virus. I fear the worse because he said its going down the ALS path but my symptoms are a-symptomatic. I'm young, in great shape, eat healthy and still able to do sports. My fasciculation's are bad but other than that, the brain fog, and the fatigue I appear to be normal. I always thought the slurring was due to tired, I seem fine when I read my kids books at night, but i really struggle through meetings at work. Anyone thoughts here?
 
I don't think anyone here can do better than your neurologist. But I will say that as far as I know, an MRI can not be suggestive of ALS. Its my understanding that an MRI is used to rule out other causes of symptoms but the EMG would be the test to point towards MND, not an MRI. That's my understanding.-Matt
 
TDenver,it is sad to hear that doctors assume you may have ALS or other MND.but still, your situation is clearly different from the vast majority of people here becasue most of them have clean MRI/EMG.However, even your doctors do not find any clinical symptomes - only some evidences on EMG/MRI that you may have certain damage (central probably). Viral infection often causes such damages so it is still possible for you to have viral neuroinfection. Brainfog actually suggests that it may be a viral one becasue ALS seldom manifests as brainfog. it could slightly affect mental abilities but only at late stages.First of all you should try to keep your daily life. We here on board have at least one story when the guy was diagnosed for ALS on the basis of misinterpreted EMG and then cancelled by top country ALS center.lack of physical symptomes, young age and second opinion should be your hope and support for now.Slight sulrring of speech is really nothing, especailly if you do not progress towards mumbling.I also agree with Matt that MRI would rather suggest about MS than for ALS.
 
TDenver,Question for you. Why did your neuro perform a 2nd EMG just 2 months after you had a clean one? Also, you said your GP ordered the MRI. If he's the one saying it suggests MND, that's not reliable at all. Listen to your neuro.Matt
 
The first time I saw my nuero he was actually treating my wife for MS (we hit the neurological lottery i guess?) and I wasn't sleeping and had just started fasciculation's. He thought it might be stress and did a very basic EMG. He said I looked fine, actually when I asked his words were "you don't have ALS". So i kept on trucking. My GP ordered the MRI and the radiologist said it was "suggestive of ALS". When I went back today he did a more exhaustive EMG and other motor test and said there is something neurological going on and ALS could be one of them, but I am not giving you that diagnosis. So more digging is being done, i've given so much blood the past month I am starting to look like a junkie. I know a lot of people with BFS have had tests done so I thought I'd ask around. to be clear my neuro did say that you can't diagnose als from an MRI, but it's like MS, you can clinically diagnose it with a combination of tests. Thanks all for the responses. Viral is also something he's looking at.
 
OK, that makes a little more sense. So, do you know what it was in your clinical exam that made him say something was going on neurologically? I mean, if he dismissed you with benign fasciculations just two months ago, what had him do more extensive testing?
 
u seem to be a little inconsistent which strongly suggest anxiety.sounds like ur doctors suck.stay away for awhile. u start to mumble or hav real weakness then go back
 
I have faith in my doc, but the brain is a hard thing to diagnose! I'm exhausted so sorry if I'm being inconsistent, I assure you it's not the anxiety ;) The neuro exam i had some weakness in my tongue, some slurring, and weakness in my arm and back muscles. Again he said it could be a virus, or some other neurological disorder and is sending me to another Neurologist with very impressive credentials as he said my symptoms are asymptomatic and need more investigation. At first he was shocked that the Radiologist would put that the results suggest ALS, but after the exam he seemed to think the two could be related. His words on the MRI were "non specific findings" but with other symptoms could be used to identify MND. I am not a kid with anxiety, I am a business exec with a family, I know what anxiety feels like but this is bigger. What confuses me is the brain fog, my intolerance to alcohol, and the fact that I don't feel weak physically, just mentally exhausted.
 
This can not be correct. You can not diagnose *** through an MRI. You can see myelomalacia which is a nonspecific finding.To have a normal neuro exam, then have a MRI showing nonspecific brain lesions, then go back to the neuro and now he finds something would either mean your neurologist totally missed it on initial exam (unlikely) or you developed something in very short order (which again unlikely) and the MRI was incidental.I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions. Can you be more specific about the findings on the neuro exam?
 
Weakness in one arm and back from the response of the EMG. I've been slurring since december. It's not all the time, but enough that the people close to me notice. They say I sound tired, Iike i answered the phone in the middle of the night. I've been able to mask from colleagues by speaking slowly and avoiding certain words. Again it's not all the time but most of the time I notice. He assessed my slurring by repeating certain sounds, and my tongue movements back and forth, the speed in which I can move it I assume?
 
a good neuro would never say emg picked up weakness.either u really stressed out, got really bad drs or ur making some of this up.post ur emg results
 
I am also very confused by your symptoms and findings. My understanding - and agreeing with others who posted:-MRI does not show ALS-If you slurred since December, and it was related to MND, then it should have gotten worse, and not be 'just some of the time' and other times being normal, but progressively worse. It should also be accompanyied by other symptoms by now, like swallowing issues.-Twitching all over is not a sign of ALS - twitching in ALS usually comes after weakness, and in the weakened area. I think it was mentioned on here that many top ALS doctors agree to that.About the bloodwork - I know how you feel. I have had these needle bruises in my arms for a few weeks myself, when I was being tested for auto-immune, vitamin deficiency and thyroid disorders. Your doctors are probably looking for viruses, different kinds, also maybe auto-immune or other disorders, so I think this is a good thing that they are looking all over for something. Keeping you and your wife in my thoughts.
 
I am so sorry for what you are going through and I hope that it turns out to be something treatable. It must be bad enough watching your wife suffer and the worry you must be feeling must be over bearing, and my thoughts are with you. I wanted to add something to the MRI question. Can MRI be used to diagnose ALS/MND? This is asked quite a lot on this forum and I recently read something that may be of interest so bear with me while I explain in my usual long winded way ( I can hear some of you sighing already).As we already discussed in another post although some people may not wish to rush into a diagnosis, for some an early diagnosis of ALS is necessary to facilitate access to insurance claims, to certain drugs, future care plans etc. We also discussed how some people never fulfil the full criteria so cant access all the specialist care programmes for this disease, and never receive the full support they need to make important future decisions on ventilation etc. It is also important for clinical trials to get patients early in disease stages where the therapies may have a chance of working, rather than late stage when most of the damage has been done, i.e. stopping the degeneration rather than having to reverse it. It is the goal to speed diagnosis up. Neuroimaging is one avenue which has attracted a lot of attention recently. Many studies claim this change on MRI or that change on a PET may be a positive sign of ALS. However it is very mixed up and nothing consensus seems to have emerged. There was a recent (2014) in depth summary of all the literature in PubMed examining if neuroimaging ( MRI and PET) had been able to consistently identify any marker (signs) that meant the patient likely had ALS. This is different from how MRI is currently used in ALS diagnosis. i.e. it is mainly used for a differential diagnostic work up, i.e. to exclude MND mimics. ( Link to paper below for those who are interested).The paper is called Lessons of ALS imaging: Pitfalls and future directions —A critical review Peter Bede * , Orla Hardiman So simply put the authors trawled through all the combined studies and published data and asked…..OK we know MRI can tell us when something other than ALS is causing these symptoms, but can we turn this around and use MRI to find some changes that we would only see in ALS patients. Can we use MRI/PET to build up a neuroimage criteria that will be able to positively aid the diagnose ALS.Importantly here is their conclusion Quote: “While neuroimaging in ALS has gained unprecedented momentum in recent years, little progress has been made in the development of viable diagnostic, prognostic (disease progression) and monitoring markers.” So here was their reason for this conclusion, with my notes added in brackets Quote : Common shortcomings, such as relatively small sample sizes ( I noticed most of the studies only had 12- 16 subjects), statistically underpowered study designs ( used the wrong statistic methods), lack of disease controls, poorly characterised patient cohorts ( for example they only aged matched and sometimes gender matched, but did not take into consideration, education status, right or left handedness etc etc all which inflluence neuroimaging), and a large number of conflicting studies, remain a significant challenge to the field. Imaging data of ALS continue to be interpreted at a group-level, as opposed to meaningful individual-patient inferences.The paper did acknowledge that MRI has been useful to advance our understanding of the mechanisms involved in progression of ALS, but tangible changes that could be defined as SPECIFIC markers of ALS were absent and unreliable. Interestingly they discuss future technological advances that may contribute greatly to this field. I have listed them for easier reading.1) 7T MRI systems (remember we talked about 3T over 1.5T systems in another post, well this is 7T (quote “ 7T promising unprecedented resolution and detailed spectroscopic evaluation” ) 2) They suggest the use of post-mortem MRI studies which method is increasingly being used in other neurodegenerative conditions, but never in ALS yet.3) Quantitative muscle MRI is another relatively overlooked field of ALS biomarker research . (Note: This is an automated measure of muscle strength and health i.e. not based on physical assessments of the patient where the measurement is more variable and dependent on patient effort. So it is more accurate and reproducible. 4) whole-brain MRS is a promising technique and its potential in ALS is currently far from being fully explored. (MRS is short for brain magnetic resonance spectroscopy)5) They also said that despite a number of very successful spinal cord MRI studies ( Valsasina et al., 2007 ), quantitative spinal imaging are underutilised in ALS.6) The emergence of combined PET / MRI scanners 7) access to magnetoencephalography (MEG) are other exciting developments which are likely to contribute to our under- standing of ALS pathophysiology ( meg is short for Magnetoencephalography there is a good article on Wikipedia on it for those interested. ( bit too technical for me ).So hope this answers somethingHX
 
I had a long lengthy write up about this subject. My computer decided to act up and I lost it. I don't have time this morning to re-write it but I'll give a summary.First and foremost my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Please forgive us, we are a neurotic detail oriented group who have seen their share of questionable stories. Yours is not one of them. I believe what you are telling us. I believe the pieces fit.Here is the summary...****The whole body fasics can't lead you to a diagnosis of ALS. If this were bulbar and you had whole body fasics, you wouldn't be able to speak or swallow, and now losing ability to move limbs. I believe they are two unrelated processes at least in regards to ALS.1) MRI-nonspecific findings actually lead me away from an ALS diagnosis. 2) Bulbar is a rare presentation of a rare disorder...less than 3% are under the age of 50, I'm guessing less than 1% are under the age of 40.3) Dirty EMGs are very common.4) The most concerning of all your findings is the reflex exam but without details I can't tell you how it's related to your speech.5) Speech issues are also VERY common, especially once you notice them. They tend to worsen around co-workers and neurologists. Bulbar doesn't come and go. It's brutal and fast. 3+ months you should expect more deficits.I don't believe you have a total anxiety related disorder. I do believe something neurologically is going on with you. With that said, if this turns out to be bulbar, your presentation is so incredibly rare they would want to write papers on you. There are quite a few less ominous disease processes that can present like this, and mathematically are more probable.I would love to be a voice to help with some of this. I'm family practiced trained who's partner is a neurologist...so I'm not coming from left field. If you so desire, a copy of the MRI report, EMG and neurologists physical would be extremely helpful to me. I could give you a few more details of what you are looking at...again if you desire for another opinion.
 
I am sorry if you feel someone has been less than polite. Without stepping on your neurologists toes, posters are just trying to get the details from your posts in order to find the best way to offer you other explanations for yor symptoms. The purpose of this is to give you something else to consider, a plausable alternative, and most importantly to provide you with some sort of hope during this agonising wait. A lot of people on here know all the ins and out of ALS and BFS, many have good medical backgrounds, some can interpret EMGs, many more know the emotional process you are going through, and the best ways of coping with it....etc etc.... so the database of combined and diverse knowledge that you have tapped into on this forum is pretty deep and extensive. A lot of people here know their stuff. Engineers can build planes and tell you all the cogs and wheels, but only the pilot knows what it is like to fly.Thoughts to youhX
 
Shawn is right very rare diseaseThere are tables giving age and gender-specific incidence of ALS per 100,000 person-years among those 18 years and over based on combined data from six European ALS Registers for the two year period (US have similar incidents). Take your age group 35 - 39. Well out of 1.8 million men in this group only 11men were diagnosed over a 2 year period with MND ( and thats not bulbar which is even rarer. (Incidence of 0.2/100,000 ) So imagine you lined up 1.8 million men in a row ( long row) then went along and picked out 8. Do you have a good idea of your family medical history, there is an inherited form of ALS which can start younger than the spontaneous version, but first degree relatives are normally affected as are many other family members, so most people with family history know and are offered screening. I once read this ( and cheekily copied and pasted it) on another forum. The visual snow forum about prolonged migraine, ( this community is the only one I post on but I do read others). It is a man called jruddy and he was in a position similar to you. this is what he said about his waiting time aftedr his neurologist had raised concerns about possible MND. ( ssh dont tell him I stole his poem)..QUOTE:jruddy I look at it like we all have a lottery ticket. I even wrote a poem back in February when the weakness started to spread to my arm. The Lottery I have a ticket, though the prize is grim. Each day I check my numbers and hope I didn't win. Last prize is for the winning masses, first is for the losing few I pray that I may come in last so that I might grow old with you. He was cleared of having ALS and this is what he wrote < Qoute " Regarding ALS, I feel the same way. Though the chances were practically NIL, it was a relief to have diagnostic confirmation of no Motor Neuron Disease, especially ALS.Keep strongHx
 

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