Discussing Muscle Weakness in Dec

owingDuckWhistler777

Well-known member
Hi. I joined up today after having limb jerks that started in Sept which dominated until Novemeber and this month (Dec), things to have become more subtle with fascs within muscles themselves (far less jerks now for some reason :confused: ). There's an awful lot of discussion about 'weakness' within the forums but I can't seem to find much on at what stage the weakness becomes apparent. Most days i wake up thinking 'will this be the day that I can't pick that cup of coffee up?' Just wondered when i might be able to rid myself of this one. Do you have to reach a threshold of time before it's improbable that the weakness/atrophy will manifest itself?

Thanks for any replies.
 
Hi Earl,
what you are describing sounds like it could very well be BFS. I get the limb jerks and fascics. You should see a Neurologist though. Mostly to put your mind at ease. An EMG should rule out any nasty diseases.
As most of us here know, it isn't hard to 'think' you're getting weaker. The mind is very powerful.
Good luck
 
Here are a few stats:

1. ALS/MND is very rare

2. 93.3% of ALS cases start with weakness, the fascics follow later

3. 6.7% of cases present with fascics alone - in a published paper, the mean time for progression to weakness was 7 months, and the longest case took 13.4 months.

4. There are NO published cases of anyone with a normal EMG going on to develop ALS/MND


For peace of mind, I would recommend seeing a neuro & having an EMG.
 
I could only find 1 documented case of a normal emg and fasics leading to als. This was presented at a european conference of neuromuscular experts. I personally have had fasciculations for 9 years with "muscle jolts" starting 2 years ago, I would nearly fall off my kayak with the body jolts. Pretty damm scary. Like the previous posts have stated most cases of als don't even notice fasics, the weakness comes first. Don't let the fasics disrupt your life, I've wasted a lot of hours worrying about als, hang in there.
 
Keep in perspective, that study about the "6.7% of cases present with fascics alone" was misleading and not one of the patients had an EMG at that point, which if facics caused by ALS were present, there is NO WAY that an EMG would have missed it, if it was performed correctly.

Facisc caused by ALS are a SECONDARY condition CAUSED by dying muscles and nerves, NOT the other way around. Fasics do NOT "cause" ALS what so ever, and again, if they are present because of ALS, weakness or not, the EMG WILL pick it up.

That "6.7%" test was VERY misleading and out of context. It meant that 6.7% of the peopel "noticed" fasics first. Well, if ALS starts in a large muscle group, it may take some time for it to render that muscle useless, and for weakness to show-up, but if it's in a hand or a finger or a foot, it certainly will NOT take very long for weakness to set in because the muscle size and density is much less, which in turn, means that it will take much less time for effects to happen in smaller muscles.

ALS is not a mystery disease, it has boundaries and borders and it is really a quite simple disease with devestating effects. There are also rules with it and one of them is that fasics with ALS are secondary. There are no if's, and's or but's about it. If you are worried and can't wait a span of time to see what happens, then get an EMG and if you had ALS with twitches, that would mean it has already taken hold and would not be missed if the EMG was performed and read correctly. It's pretty much as simple as that.

About the waiting up to 13.4 months deal... that is another statistic taken out of context. ANY disease has grey areas along with black and white areas. Things can get misdiagnosed, tests mis read or misperformed and so on. There are also lots of quack doctors out there that just don't pay attention and so far, that 13.4 months thing was ONE person! Out of all of the worlwide cases of ALS, which are VERY small numbers compared to just about ANYTHING else, one person had the misfortune of finding out 13.4 months later that someone along the line (incompetent doctors) were not paying attention.

ALS is real, if it is in your body, doing it's thing and you have fasiculations CAUSED by ALS, a GOOD doctor who knows how to perform an EMG CORRECTLY and read it CORRECTLY could certainly find-out what is going-on and it certainly wouldn't take 13.4 months to figure that out.

You know, some people die of cancer in a short amount of time and other's life for decades after a bad bout of cancer. It is all in how and when it is diagnosed and treated. I'm not saying that ALS can be treated, because so far, it can't be with any effectiveness. What I am saying is that even with something as common as cancer, where 1 in 3 of us will most likely get it in some form or another, there are strange scanarios and there are black and white scenarios. It just depends of the patients awareness of their own body, the skill and experience of the doctors and finding it in time to do something about it. ALS is exactly the same way EXCEPT for the ability to do something about it part.

How many people do you know that had a cough and the doctor said it was just a smoker's hack and later-on that person ended-up with serious lung cancer? I know several friends that have had this happen with lung and throat cancer, where doctors just blew it off as nothing. They'd call it "smoker's hack" or "wiskey voice" and two friends of mine recently died because of two different doctor's lack of concern, lack of knowledge and inability to do their job.

So, what does this have to do with ALS?, well everything! If this cancer misdiagnosis stuff happens so commonly with people we know personally, then why would it be a mystery that one or two doctors out there could misdiagnose or blow-off something as rare and as serious as ALS, such as in that 13.4 months before being diagnosed or the so called 6.7% presenting with fasics alone?? Of course there are going to be scenarios like that, but it isn't because of an ALS mystery, it is because of mistesting or incompetent doctors and like I said before, not one person in that 6.7% study had an EMG at that point. That's a pretty crappy statistic then, isn't it!

So, quit overanalyzing these out of context statistics and move-on! See a GOOD neuro with experience and get an EMG if you have any doubts. It's pretty much as simple as that...
 
Alonzo,

Perhaps I didn't explain this very well - NONE of the people in the 6.7% study had an EMG done at the start of their symptoms, including the 13.4 months person. IMHO this study supports rather than challenges your view that a clean EMG means no ALS/MND.
 
dwl, "I" know that, and "you" know that, but the person you were diredcting those "statements of facts" to certainly didn't, so I was trying to shed some light on it for him so you didn't scare the hell out of him and make him wonder if he may be one of those 6.7% of the people that get ALS with fasciculations only, or one of the people that needs to wait 13.4 months before they can start to relax a bit. Those studies were so bogus it is pathetic.

If anyone is going to post information on statistics, BE SURE to include ALL of the facts. Some of these people are on the edge of a nervous break down or totally freaking-out and all you said was, and I quote;"6.7% of cases present with fascics alone - in a published paper, the mean time for progression to weakness was 7 months, and the longest case took 13.4 months." That to me sounds like viable facts and would be cause for concern, and that is SO not true and taken out of context, hence why I started my reply off with "Keep in perspective..."

I'm not trying to be a *beep* or anything here but if people going to post facts and try to "help" someone, then they really have to thinl about what they are posting and how the person reading it is going to interpet it, or at least provide ALL of the facts to back-up the statements so someone doesn't go off the deep-end over some crappy, biased statistics.
 
Alonzo,

I would respectfully point out that my last sentence was:

"4. There are NO published cases of anyone with a normal EMG going on to develop ALS/MND"

which I made a point of putting in so that nobody freaked :)

I don't think there is any suggestion of misdiagnosis in any of the "6.7%" people - I suspect that their neuro just asked them how long they had fascisc for before they came to see him, i.e before they came within a mile of having an EMG.

So - the bottom line is, if you have fascics and a clean EMG you have nothing to worry about.

David
 
Hey. Iv'e always wanted to know what it would be like for a girl having guys fight over her! Now i know. Thanks to all for those excellent and lengthy replies. Aaron, if you didn't spend so much time on these things then maybe 'Grandma' wouldn't have to come over for baby-sitting quite so often eh?

Take care.

Earl
 
Alonzo,

I really appreciate your great and valuable contributions to this forum which has always been a GREAT source of reassurance for worried BFS-sufferers.

Having said this, I'd just like to ask you to try to stop jumping/attacking on everyone
who posts references & sources to scientific/statistical
information here.

It would be a pity if people
would be scared away from posting interesting scientifically researched data in this forum.
This forum is intended to
exchange INFORMATION about BFS and this surely includes scientific studies and statistical data about
sx patterns and probabilities.

Of course I know the caveats and fallacies and potential for misleading information with
scientific studies but I suggest to discuss them in more a factual way
(e.g. how about also supporting claims with objective sources ?)

If, however, the mayority of the forum members feels that this is not the right place for discussing scientific/statistical facts and information about BFS/ALS (
I understand that this might be indeed problemtic because of the potential misunderstanding of data or unecessarily scaring
people who are already definitely diagnosed with BFS by reading information about ALS or the differntial diagnosis between ALS and BFS)) then I suggest to open another topic area (sub-forum) dedicated solely for the discussion of scientific/statistical information about BFS and its differntation to ALS.

Again, no offence Alonzo ! your contributions have been invaluable and very well appreciated.
And I'm sure that your emotional empathetic posts have brought many
times more reassurance and comfort than any "cold" medical study ever could. Nevertheless I find it important to also have a place to discuss those "cold" and maybe sometimes scary medical facts.
But, again, maybe this topic-area is not the right place and we sould open a separate discussion area for that.

I just feel we should clarify how we deal with the scientific/study statistical-information-issue that in my opionon also deserves it's place somwhere on this BFS-site.

Thanks and Regards,
Asterix
 

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